Let me start this by saying I don't even know what Quake is (really!). Anyone that claims that ISP's are doing NAT "to save a few bucks on subnet address space" is very confused. Addresses are just plain hard to come by. Kim, the Internic, and (soon) ARIN are controlling the growth of the address space for the good of the net as a whole. Cost does not enter, even a little bit, into the equation. In order to get address space today, you *have to be able to justify it*. This means that: 1) You have to document the fact that you are using address space efficiently. This includes things like proving that you are using dynamic addresses for dialup, non-dedicated use. As well, it means you have to SWIP address space to customers using larger than a /29, and in turn force *them* to document the use. 2) You have to demonstrate need. This means that you have efficiently utilized 80% of your last allocation (and 100% of previous allocations) before the Internic (or ARIN) will allocate you more space. You must show that you need more space by forcasting short-term and long-term growth. Failure to meet your growth estimates *will* cause your future allocations to be delayed or denied. You do not get address space by buying it. Some people claim to have purchased /16's from companies no longer using them - this is no longer permitted, and when the registration is changed, justification will need to be produced. If you can't document it - it will be withdrawn. You can, however, 'buy' address space by purchasing (and continuing to run) a company with a legacy address space. NAT serves a legitimate need. Many companies today have a large legacy address space, but have firewalls that prevent this space from being accessed by the Internet, due to security concerns. This is one of the very good reasons for RFC-1918 space to exist - if you can't get to it from the Internet, it should not be a globally allocated space. This does not prevent users of that network from wanting to 'surf the web', thus the use of proxy/caching servers, and NAT boxes. An ISP that uses NAT to offer enhanced services is a good thing. They are making more efficient use of the address space available to them. We used to do things like this by putting lots of users on one box (like getting people to log in to a UNIX system to read their mail). With the advent of TCP services on the workstation, the 'need' for address space has exploded. In reality, the (very) limited use of workstation-based address space does not (IMHO) justify its use. And yes, I do make extensive use of RFC-1918 space on my networks, both for test and production use. I use many proxy servers, and firewalling. -- Dave Rand dlr@bungi.com <A HREF="http://www.bungi.com">http://www.bungi.com</A> ++ Ascend Users Mailing List ++ To unsubscribe: send unsubscribe to ascend-users-request@bungi.com To get FAQ'd: <<A HREF="http://www.nealis.net/ascend/faq">http://www.nealis.net/ascend/faq</A>> </PRE> <!--X-MsgBody-End--> <!--X-Follow-Ups--> <!--X-Follow-Ups-End--> <!--X-References--> <!--X-References-End--> <!--X-BotPNI--> <HR> <UL> <LI>Prev by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg10370.html">Re: (ASCEND) Quake/QW and Pipeline 75 and NAT</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by Date: <STRONG><A HREF="msg10371.html">(ASCEND) Max 4004 72 Modems</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Prev by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg10378.html">Re: (ASCEND) Quake/QW and Pipeline 75 and NAT</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Next by thread: <STRONG><A HREF="msg10387.html">Re: (ASCEND) Quake/QW and Pipeline 75 and NAT</A></STRONG> </LI> <LI>Index(es): <UL> <LI><A HREF="maillist.html#10374"><STRONG>Main</STRONG></A></LI> <LI><A HREF="thrd226.html#10374"><STRONG>Thread</STRONG></A></LI> </UL> </LI> </UL> <!--X-BotPNI-End--> <!--X-User-Footer--> <!--X-User-Footer-End--> </BODY> </HTML>